In a sense, it a measure of freedom to move cards about, and it is subjective. Inexperienced players tend to overlook the order of the game and concentrate almost solely on turning hidden cards. Only when all the hidden cards have been flipped does their attention then shift to ordering. However, when an experienced Spider Solitaire player is faced with a choice of, say, giving up an empty column to either turn a hidden card or to add more order to the game state, they will carefully examine the game state and choose the option that they feel is most likely to result in a win.
Very often, the better option is to add order to the game. This also has the advantage that turning hidden cards later in the game is likely to be easier. For the 4-suit player who does not undo movies, this is an extremely important lesson to learn if they wish to maximize their win ratio. Many times in games, it's advantageous to leave a run disordered, meaning that it contains more suit changes than it has to. Disorder can often be shifted from one column to another by removing changes in suits from one column at the expense of adding them to one or more runs in other columns.
This is usually much easier to accomplish when at least one column is vacant. The player should choose to leave the disorder more suit changes in columns where they are less likely to hinder a win. Knowing which columns comes with experience. A most obvious example is probably when a column has all of its hidden cards turned.
Before the next deal, it's usually advantageous to leave such a column with the fewest number of changes in suits as possible, preferably none.
This way, after the deal, it's much more likely that the column can be emptied. Novices mostly perform moves with little regard for how each move might affect the game state. This is one key reason why they lose most games. For example, a player might move a six of hearts on top of a seven of hearts. This seems like it should be a good move. But what if moving the six of diamonds atop of the seven of hearts might have led to more gains? And what if by waiting, a future game state could have made even more productive use of the same seven?
Winning solitaire games generally require a degree of skill and luck. You just need skill and patience. Other Solitaire variations are games of pure chance and do not require skill.
Thanks for your feedback. Another question is: Are you rejecting games that the computer presents to you? Now, concerning your tournament idea: I've given this quite a bit of thought over the last few years. Lets suppose that we allow players to undo and restart. Assuming that they have lots of time to play their games, we should expect that many of them would win all of their games. But, your idea was to limit their time.
This might actually work, but it's not my idea of fun. Yes, I think that there should be a tournament -- similar to blitz chess -- where the player can undo, restart, and has a limited amount of time. But, what about the player who doesn't undo or restart games?
There should be a parallel tournament where the player can neither undo moves nor restart games. Special software would need to be written to ensure that nobody cheated. We would also fix it so that they could not reset a game or reset their computer. Each player would have lots of time and would play the same exact randomly generated games, how ever many of them there would be, perhaps Since it's a given than none of the player would win every game, we could take the top players and move them into the finals.
I have ideas for the finals as well, but I'll spare you the details. How does it sound? Another idea is to have all of it online except for the finals.
Of course, there would be many details to work out. For example, each player would need a webcam so that we would know if there were really playing. Obviously, players would have to pay an entry fee.
Noam - Yes I have been wondering when will someone start a ss championship. If one could get prize money then at least your family will not think you are wasting your time. Thanks, the way you explained it I think I understand better - taking the given and work out the different paths. At first I thought not undoing is more random, but the way you explained it you use your logic and knowledge of the game to identify your options. When you undo, you can play the whole game back - thus not restarting, and follow a different path, so yes I think undoing gives more winnable options and not undoing would definitely make the game more difficult for me.
Elnavann, I really haven't played a lot of games with undo, so I don't know first hand how difficult winning in that manner is. But certainly one is going to win very more games by undoing moves.
I have no cause to doubt them. It would seem that even at the 4-suit level, nearly every game is winnable. But, this does not mean that a winnable path will necessarily be easy to find. For instance, one might turn over a hidden card in the opening round only to discover at the end of the game that the opening-round move actually created an unwinnable situation. Of course, if the player fails to notice the reason for the loss and there is no other winnable path, winning the game could indeed be quite a challenge.
So, when you say that "undoing is sometimes very difficult to solve", I believe you. However, the key word in your statement is "sometimes". I also believe that the majority of the games played with undo are not so difficult and are basically little more than trial and error.
For me, the majority of games are challenging; however, it appears to me that for the undo player, only a small percentage of the games would be challenging. But, maybe I'm wrong. It does seem though that using undo results in quite a different game than when undo is not used. Some enjoy the undo game and some enjoy the no-undo game.
I am mystified as to what you mean by "you give yourself more options, by knowing more". I assume that you mean that by undoing and restarting, you learn more about the setup of that particular game.
But, this is not the same as knowing more about the game in general. I think the key different between the two styles is that YOU can move cards around to try out different scenarios to see what works and what does not.
On the other hand, I am forced to imagine what the current game state would look like were I to perform a particular sequence of moves. Then, holding that in my mind, I must imagine what to do next, and so one. I must see into the future purely my envisioning different what-if scenarios, without ever moving a single card. When I do move cards, it's not uncommon for me to play 20, 30, 40, or more moves before finally realizing the gain I held only in my mind.
On occasion, a plan will take more than moves to complete. To be truthful, there are tricks to remembering a complicated plan.
I do not actually have to remember every single move. But even so, it can get very involved. This is why, in my opinion, the no-undo game is more challenging. But then, as I said, I have never really played the undo game, so I really don't know for sure.
Steve, I agree that NOT all games are winnable in principle. I have often wondered how many possible deals there are, and of course a computer programme would be able to asses the theoretical possibilities and also the percentage unwinnable. When it comes to undo, I think you give yourself more options, by knowing more, thus I do not see it as cheating.
For me, even with undoing it is sometimes very difficult to solve a game. Lets define a winnable game to be one in which there exists at least one sequence of moves, no matter how improbable, that if played would lead to a victory.
I play only at the 4-suit level, I never undo moves, I do not restart games, and I do not reject games. And no, I'm not making this up. Furthermore, I still make mistakes. I should think that if a computer were programmed to play Spider flawlessly, without undoing moves and without cheating by looking at hidden cards and so on, that it might win on average as many as two out of every three games.
It's all about finding the move sequences that give you the greatest chance of victory. The sad part is that many games cannot be won by playing them logically; but, playing them in this manner should maximize your win ratio.
The truth of the matter is that the odds of winning without undoing moves depends on the skill level of the player. Contrary to what Mendicant Optimist believes, it is NOT largely a matter of luck, although as with card games in general there is a healthy element of chance. I might claim that playing with undo and restart is largely a function of trial and error. But to be fair, I think there is some skill involved even when undoing, but I believe less than when not undoing.
In any event, if one can win ever game by undoing, what's the point of playing? Where's the challenge? But besides that, the fact that it's possible to arrange the cards in a Spider game so that it cannot be won tells us that not every game is winnable at any level. The reason, I believe, that some seem to think that all games are winnable is because they have no concept of just how many unique games there are.
Even at the 1-suit level, there are more that a googol unique Spider games. I have done the math and so have others. This is a 1 followed by zeros. Practically speaking, they should expect to never be dealt an unwinnable game. It's a game. The game is programmed like that. It is up to the player which way to go. When you don't use undo, whether you win or lose is largely a function of luck.
It's true that there are some basic strategies that will increase your chances of winning when you don't use undo, but these are nothing compared with the memory, foresight, and planning that are required when winning a really challenging game using the undo function. I am a molecular biologist and design targeting constructs for modifying genes for a living, and I can tell you that playing solitaire with the undo function uses the same parts of my brain as engineering a complex DNA construct.
Real life contains plenty of anaologies to the undo function. I can't tell you how many times I've tried a particular genetic engineering strategy that didn't work the first time, forcing me to go back a few steps, sometimes to the very beginning, and start over again to see if another approach will work. If you're going to take the less challenging approach and avoid the undo option, maybe you should just stick to regular Windows 7 solitaire.
Such a thing is not reality of life There were two other things I meant to mention. The other is that when the program displays the "No More Moves" window, it isn't always right. Many times when I'm shifting cards around toward the end of the game, the program isn't sophisticated enough to see what's going on. I was playing a game earlier today where the program told me several times that I had no more possible moves during a series of moves I was making.
I selected the "Return and try again" option each time and ended up freeing up an additional stack. So, don't let it convince you that there's nothing left to do if you can see that there is. I only play four suits on Windows 7. I use the undo function liberally, but until recently I'd discard games if they got too tedious. A few months ago I decided to test the idea that all games are winnable, and so I resolved not to give up unless I was convinced that I'd tried everything possible to win, including going back to the beginning multiple times.
Since that time I've won every game I've tried - over games - without any losses, except in one instance I accidently closed the program while a game was in progress. This sometimes involves thousands of moves, and really crappy scores, but I'm going for the win, not the high score. And yes, you can win even when you run into a situation where there aren't any moves on the last deal.
You just have to go back and rearrange things so that one of the final cards lands on the next higher card s of the same suit, so that you can move them as a stack. This may sound far fetched, but it works, even though sometimes you have to do a lot of backtracking and rearranging. I'll let you know if I run into a game that seems unbeatable.
Absolutely on random deal ,unsolvable is prevalent, but not as much as simply flipping wrong card, when refusing to use undo. That is why winning deal option is made available, computer run guaranteed solvable, if you play it correctly. I also thought there should be some spider combinations that are unsolvable, for example, what if none of your deals have ANY movable cards? Undo is NOT a factor of setting a mean percentage of games solved in plays. There is a function of real world spyder random deal ,1 in If the game were random, wins in a row would be impossible.
So it is programmed to be winnable. Up till now I won them all. Just Once with moves. But I know I could easily stack the deck in such a way that the deck would be unwinnable. Take all of the Queens and 10s and put them in the top part of the deck so they are dealt face down in the initial deal.
Then no matter what happens with the cards you turn up later, you can never win because you can never move the initial 10 face-up cards because you will never expose a Queen or Now it is entirely possible, that the game only deals winnable hands, but if the deck is completely random, there are many different combinations that are provably unwinnable.
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